>> gretchen: we're back with photographer steve shapiro. check out his new book. chevy chase story. you are the godfather to whom? >> actually we're godparents to chevy chase's daughter, sydney, who is in that picture. my wife and i. chevy is incredible in terms of playing the piano. >> steve: we'll talk about that in the after the show show. bill: that is cutting it tight. good morning, everybody. breaking news and facing some of her biggest critics. ambassador susan rice goes to capitol hill this hour where she will meet with republican lawmakers who have been furious with her initial remarks on libyan terror attack. how will this story go? that is our lead morning. i'm bill hemmer. martha: i'm martha maccallum. about five days after our consulate was attacked on september the 11th we all remember ambassador rice went on all five sunday shows and said the killing of the ambassador and three other americans was actually the result of a spontaneous

mob sparking outrage, those comments did, from top gop lawmakers including these three senators, mccain, graham and ayotte. >> don't we all have the responsibility before we go out and talk to the american people on all five sunday morning shows for verifying those facts are true? >> the most basic information about what happened on the night of the attack, and what survivors had to say after the attack is not being provided and we'll talk more about that. bill: so you wonder then whether or not they will get the answers they're looking for. whether or not some of these questions will lead to even more questions. they will sit down in about 20 minutes from now. kelly wright is live in washington there. kelly, you're covering this morning. what is the expectation from this meeting on the hill? >> reporter: the expectations bill, they will get down to the bottom of this. at least that's what they will try to do. that is the most fundamental thing to these republican senators. they want to find out

exactly what susan rice knew, before, during and after that attack. she has emerged, by the way as a frontrunner and possibly being nominated for secretary of state. if so, she will have to face these critics anyway in a confirmation hearing. their support will be vital. with this meeting she can face them and explain why she described the attack at the u.s. consulate in benghazi this way. let's give you a recall. >> what happened initially it was a spontaneous reaction to what had just transpired in cairo. as a consequence of the video. >> reporter: and she never described it as a terror attack back then and that has outrained key republicans who find her comments very troubling. >> i don't think this is a matter of dishonesty. it was a matter again of responsibility. there was plenty of information out there which she has access to, which contradicted what she said. well you have, if you're telling the american people

speaking for the white house, it was the white house that sent her out, you have the responsibility to make sure those facts are accurate. >> reporter: so they're looking at responsibility component of this, not so much dishonesty, there were allegations perhaps she was trying to help the white house cover up something. now it is going to the core what she knew and was she fundamentally wrong and came out and said spontaneous reaction as opposed to describing as a terror attack. ambassador rice will be meeting a few minutes from now to answer the questions from senator mccain and others who have problem with her statements. she will have the opportunity in this closed-door session to give her account to possibly overcome any her dells that might stand in her way if she is nominated for secretary of state. bill: you mentioned the white house too, kelly, how is the white house responding to criticism of ambassador rice? >> reporter: while critics are tough on ambassador rice, press secretary jay carney made it very clear that the white house firmly supports the ambassador. >> ambassador rice has done

an excellent job at the united nations and is highly qualified for any number of positions in the foreign policy arena. i will leave it at that. >> reporter: bill, you may recall very quickly here that during his first white house news conference after his re-election, president obama took exception to republican senators critical of rice saying, quote if they want to come after anyone, they should come after him, after me. bill: he said it with force. kelly, thank you. waiting on the meeting in washington. martha: ambassador rice, reportedly as we were saying one of the top candidates to replace secretary of state hillary clinton and the president seemed to lay down the gauntlet to senators mccain and graham if the first news confriends after the election. kelly referred to this moment. let's look at it from november the 14th. >> if senator mccain and senator graham and others want to go after somebody, they should go after me. martha: that is really the feistiest moment of that news conference.

the president, who you see here, with ambassador susan rice and former president bill clinton and others they are described as close and president obama made it clear that republican opposition from will not keep him from nominating her for second irat that of state if that is what he decides to do. so we will see. big moment coming up in 26 minutes from now on all of that. so what questions will ambassador rice face when she goes to the hill just a few short minutes from now? can she smooth over any of the rough relations created by all of that with these senators over her benghazi remarks? we'll talk to former u.n. ambassador john bolton. he will be here in "america's newsroom" just a few minutes away. we'll ask him what he believes she should be asked this morning by the senators. that is coming up. there are some new concerns today that president obama and republicans may not be able to strike a deal that would avoid that potentially devastating fiscal cliff that is looming over the u.s. economy right now.

the president is meeting with small business owners at the white house today. he had a series of meetings with different business leaders over the last week. despite the warnings that the talks are stalling on capitol hill stuart varney joins me now, host of "varney & company" on fox business network. >> good morning, martha. bill:. martha: what are you hearing how this is going? >> it is impasse basically. the republicans said yesterday they accommodated the democrats they will agree to get more money from wealthy people from higher taxes but mitch mcconnell, senate republican leader, he says there has been no similar compromise from the democrats or the president. he says they are still holding out for higher tax rates on the rich and he says the radical left is prescenting the democrats and president and agreeing to serious reform from medicare. martha, i have to tell you. i got new numbers from medicare, from trustees, actually. medicare has to pay out in the future $42 trillion. that is money which it does

not now have. so you can see that this is very serious issue. cuts in spending, cuts to medicare. who will make them? it is very serious because what that kind of money outstanding you need some kind of an agreement and fast. the bottom line right now, martha, it is again an impasse. martha: that's a huge number, stuart. it was about 38 trillion just less than a year ago i believe. >> yes. martha: so that number has really ballooned to 42 trillion as stuart shares with us in terms of those numbers. let's go back to the republican side for just a moment because i think there is a discrepancy in terms of the understanding what republicans seem to be agreeing to do. there is difference between raising tax rates which they have said they will not do. so i don't see any ground being ceded on the raising of tax rates for the wealthy but the changing of loopholes that would indeed, would that produce roughly the same amount of revenue, more, less? what's the read on that stuart? >> we don't know. martha: yeah. >> if you close loopholes,

cut some deductions how much money do you bring in? you can't tell until you know which deductions will be cut and by how much. you do know if you raise tax rates on upper income earners, you will bring in '82 ball a year. that is only -- $82 billion. that is 10 weeks interest on the national debt. raising tax rates does not address the debt problem. we don't know how much we address the deficit problem by closing loopholes. impasse. martha: we'll see where that goes. stuart, thanks very much. we'll talk to chris van hollen moments away. bob,er is also here today. we'll get to some of that with them. thanks, stuart. bill: some context from how far the revenue ending bush tax cuts would go. during the 2012 fiscal year it costs $9.7 billion a day to run the federal government. the additional revenue stopping bush tax cuts would

bring in $82.4 billion. a number that would run the government for 8 1/2 days. senator corker says there is plan on the table for two years. martha: that grand bargain that was so close. we'll see where that is in terms of both sides. bill:. we're just getting started on this tuesday morning. how about this story? oh, my gosh, a toddler seconds away from almost certain death in this video as a car comes barreling around that bend. we'll show you what the rest of what happens here and we'll tell you what ended up happening. bill: there is new violence on the streets of key roy. in fact we're getting word that crowds are amassing today. anger growing over a presidential power grab. the white house treading softly on the issue. >> white house criticizing president morsi. would you say that was incorrect statement? >> i would say that we are concerned about it and

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martha: this is a disturbing story out of mexico. a young beauty queen killed in a big round of violence there. maria flores, traveling with a gang of accused drug traffickers when the men got into a shootout with government soldiers over the weekend. this in mexico's most powerful drug cartel base. prosecutors say the beauty queen's body was found near an assault rifle. unclear whether she used that weapon. bill: as we get closer now in this fiscal cliff matter, one senator has done something rare. he is actually offering specifics how he would get our financial house in order. tennessee senator bob corker laying out a 10-year, $4.5 trillion plan that calls for smaller inflation adjustment for social security, a gradual increase in the social security retirement age to 68.

eligible for medicare, would go up to 67. this plan also includes some $749 billion in higher tax revenue. that would come from capping itemized deductions at $50,000 which would hit wealthier americans the hardest. senator bob corker with me, republican, member of the senate banking committee. how are you doing, senator? >> i'm great. thanks for having me on today. bill: rolling the big boulder up the hill one way or another now. >> that's right. bill: why do you believe this plan is something congress could have acted on for two years? you say it's been on the table that long. >> bill, we had every option known to mankind and scored and discussed and congress showed lack of courage to deal with this. we laid out a very specific plan. i wrote an op-ed yesterday in the "washington post." we sent out language to speaker boehner, to mitch mcconnell's office, to the white house and secretary

geithner yesterday and to others. what we're trying to show we can deal with this issue. so many people in the house and senate want to kick the can down the road and take another six months looking at the options. we all know what the options are. the menu is actually going to diminish as time goes on and choices we'll have to make will be even more draconian as we pile up more and more debt. bill: you say do it sooner rather than later? >> do it now. bill: how do you handle entitlement reforms, medicare, medicaid? how do you tackle it? >> that is the reason we've written a 242-page bill that lays all of that out that shows technically it is very easy to do this. what this takes is political courage. i think what the country hired all of us to do and to solve this problem, put it in the rear view mirror and let's start january focused on the greatness of this nation and putting in place policies that will cause us to be stronger. so i'm advocating us not kicking the can down the road anymore. all over the last two years

throughout tennessee i have advocated pro-growth reform, generating revenues on the tax side and entitlement reform. i think the nation is ready to address this issue and i hope all people throughout our country will encourage congress to go ahead and have the political courage now to do what we've been hired to do and put this in the rear view mirror. bill: you have a big challenge ahead of you. do you have any democrats to support your plan? >> you know what? a lot of democrats that support elements of my plan. bill: do you have one? >> well there are a lot of democrats that support lots that is in my bill and so what i have done, here's the legislative text. i know this can be improved and improve it. here is where i think we are though. republicans have shown flexibility on pro-growth tax reform. closing loopholes. i think most americans know that there are $1.2 trillion of loopholes in the tax code each year. most americans would like to

see a flatter tax code without all of those loopholes. so republicans have shown flexibility there. now i think it is up to the president and the other side of the aisle to show what they're really willing to do on medicare reform. bill: here's a hint on that. dick durbin, democratic senator from illinois. he is very close to the president. he is introduced him at every major political event since he came into public office from illinois. he will have a press conference today. he is going to make a speech that says medicare and medicaid should be looked at but not part of the fiscal cliff negotiations. so if that is the case you change that at all right now? >> let me say this. i know that we have people out posturing and again we have all kind of folks that just want to sweep this under the rug and let the problem get even bigger. the fact is the two most important people are the president and speaker boehner. both of them in the beginning of this have shown a degree of flexibility.

what we need to do, people like myself offer concrete solutions to solve this problem. when they get in their meeting they need to have these at their disposal and we as a country again need to go ahead and deal with this issue now. i know that senator durbin actually has shown some strength for what it's worth, i don't know what he will do today in his press conference but he has been more, he has been more than willing to look at medicare reform. bill: one more question. why do you want to go after revenue at all? you're $16.2 trillion in the hole? i mean your entire life any money washington gotten it has spent? >> yeah, i think all throughout this campaign republicans talked about pro-growth tax reform. what i have laid out is just that, and what it does it keeps rates from going up. so bill, all those companies and our country file tax forms under sub-s&l lcs,

they will no per my legislation tax rates will not go, economic decisions about hiring people will not be affected. certainly on the personal side some deductions they have will go away. republicans for decades talked about having a flatter tax rate. that is what really i'm advocating and you think that's what we ought to do. bill: senator, thank you. grow very norquist is coming up next hour. he has things to say about this. bob corker keeping things fair and balanced next hour. we'll talk to the ranking themmer member of the house budget committee, chris van hollen. we'll talk about what his party will do to keep the nation from going over the fiscal cliff. 34 days. martha: it will go over a bit into january and that will force the issue and they will come together and we'll get something close to that grand bargain on the table that was walked away from. where are we with all of this? much more coming up on that. more than two million americans could lose their unemployment benefits at the

end of this year. the 99 weeks of unemployment is about to run out for many of them. steve forbes on the impact on the economy of that and his take whether it is really a bad thing. bill: live pictures tahrir square. this is central cairo. thousands gathering again as night fallen krochs, protesting the new president's unprecedented power grab. they're calling him, some of them, the new pharaoh. we're live there with details. i'm only in my 60's...

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bill: major protests in europe. check this out. watch here. that is a scuffle between riot police and milk producers. police trying to break up a protest with pepper spray. demonstrators responded by

hosing them down with milk. protesters want european nations to make reforms so milk prices will go up. saying their farms are being threatened because milk is often sold below production costs. first the milk. then the fire. the streets of brussels. martha: thousands are gathering today in tahrir square protesting a presidential decree that critics say may be turning their newfound democracy into a very old-fashioned looking dictatorship. steve harrigan joins us now he is streaming live from cairo. steve, what is the latest going on there? >> reporter: martha, this is the largest and angry evident crowd of anti-presidential protesters we've seen in the fast five days. they're continuing to stream into tahrir square from different points around the city. these are people who think the president has overstepped himself by declaring his acts above the law and above the courts and they're calling for him to come down.

the chants of violence in the crowd this loud, this angry in a country that is divided is certainly high. much of the violence now is to s around the main section of the crowd. that is where the younger protesters are scuffling with police. in an effort to reduce the chance of violence the president's supporters from the muslim brotherhood canceled a march to keep one side away from the other. martha? martha: this is so remarkable. we saw the scenes when hosni mubarak was thrown out of office. then there was the election and democracy supposedly that put president morsi in place. we have the same crowds back into the square and they're protesting again. he made some moves to try to quell all of this and compromise a bit. were they meaningful though, steve? >> reporter: certainly we are seeing exactly the same scenes, sometimes exactly the same chants that were used against hosni mubarak now being used against the new egyptian president. he did attempt to make a move or an appearance at

compromise yesterday. he met with some of his critics, some of the chief judges here in cairo but it is clear his attempts trying to reduce the scale of his power grab is not being met with any kind of approval by the crowds. they're out today in much stronger numbers, really rejecting any hint at compromise. they want him to withdraw this decree completely. they will stand here until that happens. martha? martha: all right. steve, really volatile situation. you've got live pictures on the right here. you can see the kind of camping out scene that we saw during the arab spring. so many people were so excited about the promise of the arab spring and the end of the mubarak regime. now when you look at this shot it could have been taken from that moment. these people are now protesting against hosni mubarak, the democratically electedded muslim brotherhood leader of egypt is facing the same kind of revolt some would say in the streets. we'll keep a close eye on live developments in cairo.

our thanks to steve harrigan, just several feet above that scene right now. bill: that is breaking and developing overseas. also back at home we're only minutes away from susan rice and her arrival on the hill. show you a live look where we expect the ambassador to arrive. she will sit down with her harshest critics who say she misled the american people on the attack in libya. we'll get reaction from the man who used to hold her job, former u.n. ambassador to the u.n., john bolton, is our guest next

martha: all right. we've got a fox news alert because it is 9:30 on the east coast and there is senator kelly ayotte as she walks into a very important meeting this morning after a couple of months of controversy over this u.s. ambassador susan rice is about to face her toughest republican critics on benghazi. this is a live shot on the interiors and escalators of capitol hill this morning. ambassador rice will sit down with senators john mccain, senator lindsay graham and senator kelly ayotte who you saw moments ago. republicans say ambassador rice intentionally or unintentionally misled americans when she went on those five sunday talk shows and said that the murders that happened to the u.s. ambassador and three others were simply the outburst of a spontaneous mob in reaction to a video. we're joined by ambassador john bolton who held the post formerly, as u.n.

ambassador to the u.n. and he joins us this morning. >> good morn being, martha. glad to be with you. martha: there are a couple of issues why ambassador rice was put in that position in the first place. but the first question they will put to her is who told you to say that, right? >> right. susan rice's defense to date i was given this set of talking points by somebody and i simply repeated them. now, there's a substantial question whether that's the right way to behave, but let's leave that aside for a minute and say, that is just, assume that is what actually happened. the real question is, did she talk to anybody else once she was given these talking points? did she question where they came from? did she try and penetrate beneath the analysis? did she talk to president obama before she went on those five sunday morning talk shows? did she talk to the national security advisor. martha: here is senator

mccain as he heads into this meeting. he has been a very visible presence on this whole story and, you know one thing to mention in the context what you're saying. we heard from general petraeus, she says that the comments came from intel. general petraeus says the comments came from intel as he was head of the cia at the time including specific references to al qaeda being involved. so another question for her would clearly be, who changed that, who decided not to include that, right? >> let's come to the second point. that she says she simply read these talking points and if that's true, really poses a much more fundamental question. why did she read the talking points? and it goes to a basic disagreement about how senior officials function in government. there are plenty of people, and i can same secretaries of state, who simply regurgitate what their bureaucracies produced for them, who relied on talking points. talking points were put in front of them and they read them. that is one way to approach

government. that is not the way i approached government and got me in considerable trouble from time to time. if that is the way she approached it i think there is question whether from a point of view of judgment that is something that you want to see perpetuated. martha: talk about the politics of all of this for a moment because there's a reason that susan rice requested these meetings with these three senators. we know she is being considered for secretary of state. so that might suggest that she is going to be named the nominee for secretary of state because why else would they, you know, want her to sort of get out there? might be a very smart political move. go in there and have a nice conversation with these three senators some who you will face in the nomination process? >> no, absolutely. this is clearly laying the predicate for a nomination. i think that the president will nominate her to be secretary of state and i think she will be confirmed. so it is certainly better from the president's point of view to get this issue out of the way just in case there might be a problem and

once it is gone i would expect she would be confirmed fairly rapidly. martha: would you expect as a result of this sit-down that these senators will soften toward her as well? john mccain has already done that to some extent. i don't really blame susan rice. i blap the president. >> i think he is right to blame the president. my own personal view at least with respect to executive branch appointments the president should pretty much get who he wants. what senator mccain and others will do, obviously i don't know, it depends what susan rice says in that meeting. >> a lot of people want to know why the secretary of state hillary clinton was not the person who was at those talk shows, you know, speaking on behalf of her own ambassador and what happened there. >> exactly. i think that should be the first question that they ask her. martha: we'll see. ambassador, thank you so much. good to have you here this morning. >> thank you. martha: live shot on the left as they begin the meeting on capitol hill.

bill: he was buried eight years ago but the body of former palestinian leader yasser arafat exhumed today. and reburied quickly after that. forensic scientists getting evidence to see exactly how he died. david lee miller in jerusalem. why is this happening anyway? >> reporter: the remains were disinterred to find out whether or not he was poisoned. in his tomb in the presidential compound they removed his body this morning briefly to remove portions of his body that can be examined. a blue tarp was erected for the purposes of privacy. arafat's wife, suha, requested the exhumation and the investigation after a tv documentary found evidence that he might, that he might i emphasize, have been poisoned. experts on the tv show say they found trace elements of a chemical element on his

clothing. you might recall arafat died in 2004. he was last seen live in ramallah boarding a helicopter to begin a journey to military hospital in france where he died two weeks later. the official cause of death is listed as a stroke. many palestinians believe he was poisoned by israel. that something israel denies. the bottom line here in life he was controversial and in death, bill, he also remains very controversial. bill: what is this pallonium poison? >> it is a radioactive element that can be extremely, extremely deadly. according to u.s. regulatory, nuclear regulatory commission it emits radiation that can essentially destroy human tissue. it can not we are told penetrate skin. if ingested it can cause deadly harm to dna, to main body organs and as well as we are told the immune system. and this particular isotope

is so powerful, bill, that we're told that an amount as small as the size of a grain of salt can be deadly. another thing to keep in mind is that it decays very, very quickly. it has a very short half-life. in other words, officials say, after 2 1/2 years it might be very hard to detect. that means after arafat has been buried since 2004, whatever results are reached might in fact be inconclusive. bill? bill: david lee miller, a good mystery you have from jerusalem. thank you, david lee. martha: let's get a look at the markets eight minutes into the trading day. investors are keeping a close eye on the european economy. there was some positive signs of a move to help greece that infused the market a bit. new indicators on the health of the economy here at home. we've seen new home prices creeping up a little bit. home price as little bit higher right now. the dow closed yesterday down to finish at 12,967.

it is bumping up against that 13,000 level. we'll he will keep an eye on it throughout the day. down about 20 right now. more than two million americans could be losing their unemployment benefits at end of 2012 which is not too far away. steve forbes is coming up. he tells us why he thinks that may not be a bad thing. bill: martha, too close to call here. how this little boy came so close to what could have been a certain death. video you do not want to miss. we'll show it to you and show you how it turned out. >> after looking at video apparently i hurdled two showcases. holy spirit you know, gave me and courage and power i needed to do to get him out. i wish i could take credit for it. i was just doing, just reaction. er, remember -- you can stay in and share something... or you can get out there and actually share something. ♪ the lexus december to remember sales event is on. this is the pursuit of perfection.

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store owner walking through the area of the store in savannah, georgia. watch this, seconds later a car comes smashing through the front of the store. what you can't see the it sent the child flying into a backs office area. >> i just, remembered being, definition of chaos. nobody knew who was hurt or goit just happened. it was, i mean it was just chaos. >> by the time i got over the desk, got back to my feet, my 21-year-old son, my oldest son, caleb, had already reacted. i keep saying it over and over basically he is my hero. he got to my baby before i could. martha: unbelievable. oh, my gosh. guardian angel at work in that situation. fortunately the toddler landed in a spot where there was no debris. now he is doing just fine. somebody watching over that 16-month-old boy in the jewelry store. thank goodness, well-done. good for pops too.

martha: yep. bill: nice. national unemployment rate is stubborn, still pushing close to 8%, america. more than two million of the long-term unemployed could lose their unemployment benefits at the end of this year. as the chart shows there is still a lot of americans out of work. more than 400,000 americans claimed jobless benefit just last week alone. steve forbes, chairman, editor-in-chief of forbes media with me now. how are you doing, steve. good morning to you. >> how are you, bill? bill: i'm doing fine. hope you had a good thanksgiving too. this is a sad reality for so many millions of americans. if unemployment benefits are scaled back or lost to many of them, do you believe that others believe it could have a significant impact on our economy? >> well, it is not so much the impact on the economy, it is on those particular individuals and in terms of enabling them to get new schools or to take jobs. one of the things that a lot

of people are coming to grips with, they're not going to get the kind of job they had before this economic crisis and will have to lower their expectations but on this whole thing on the unemployment benefits, i, that is going to have to be dealt with, obviously as part of the fiscal cliff. i think given all that has to be done, bill, i think the most realistic thing, take everything, extend it for 90 days or 180 days so we don't have the idea we can reform social security, medicare, medicaid, the tax code, in a few days before christmas. that is preposterous. bill: what you're arguing take it to the 1st of april? >> absolutely. you can't do this thing in a rush job or else you're going to have a lot of stuff in the legislation that will be garbage. that that's what happened in 2010. we see it in other legislation. for once, why not have congress and the white house do something dlitly instead of right to the deadline and you get something that ends up doing more harm than good. bill: many suggested that in

all likelihood what they will do in the end. unemployment, back on topic, new york state still at 83 weeks. california, 73 weeks. nevada, 73 weeks. you know how the unemployment rate is in nevada. those people are really hurting out there. mark zandi, a lot of people go to him for his thoughts on economy. he believes the unemployment benefits is the most beneficial element to the economy in the short term. do you agree with him? >> no. not to bore our listeners with this keynesian nonsense you print pieces of paper that somehow stimulates the economy. it doesn't. you focus how you enable people to get through a very rough patch that had nothing to do with them. how do you it in a way that doesn't perpetuate unemployment but allows people to get jobs even if it is not what they want at least get back on their feet. in terms of the economy, don't do it in the macro thing to help the economy. no. focus does it enable people to get through a rough patch and get people back on their feet. bill: or do you take the

other argument and suggest the more unemployment you receive the less incentive it is for someone to actually find a job? >> well, the benefits are not overly generous on this thing but the key thing to keep in mind is, yes, you don't want these things to go on forever because people will then hold out for that job that may not be out there. so have a definite cuttoff date. people know they may have to take something they don't like at the beginning but that all focuses on we have to focus on getting this economy back on its feet. that is something that seems to beyond the capability of washington right now. bill: if you would argue for extending unemployment benefits, in all likelihood a guy like steve forbes will argue to get spending cuts to offset that increase? but there has not been a desire shown by washington, you know, to cut the spending to make the books match up, and you wonder whether or not this is going to be part of some fiscal

cliff negotiations or whether it is put off to the side because as you point out, this list is so long, and the challenge that washington has is so enormous, you wonder how much it, what the product looks like in the end? is it good for america or as you say, garbage? >> it is not good for america that they put this all in one bill at a holiday time but that's for the history books. right now we have to deal with this mess. i think the best, most responsible way is to realize we're not going to deal with these things in a constructive way under this deadline. put it off for three months or six months, figure out what you can do. there will be certain areas where we have ferocious fights reforming the tax code in a positive way and not having disguised tax increases and dealing with entitlements. that will take 12 to 18 months to come up with something sensible. you can't do that in 72 hours or three weeks.

bill: dick durbin argue on democratic side take that out of the fiscal cliff and deal with that after the deal. >> occasionally democrats get something right but the key thing is for republicans to hold the line on taxes. europe is raising taxes. japan is raising taxes and it is a disaster. we don't need a weak economy being burdened with this type of stuff. bill: steve forbes. thank you. got a question at home. hemmer at foxnews.com. twitter at bill hemmer. bya, because you asked. as he pointed out there are so many issues to tackle how do you get it done in 35 days? martha: look to europe and japan where they raised taxes. doesn't seem to be helping them. chris van hollen is coming up and what he thinks about all that as we try to avoid the fiscal cliff just days away. republican republicans are willing to talk tax reform but will democrats budge on

issue of entitlements. we'll talk to chris van hollen. is that snow on the capitol dome? bill: i think you're right. martha: a little bit of snow, or a funky monitor. this fisherman was stranded at sea. how a small piece of plastic helped to save his life.

bill: so the fisherman survives a harrowing ordeal at sea with help of one simple piece of plastic. rescuers pulling the man from the water off-key biscayne in florida after he spent seven hours clinging to the top of a cooler. this after a large wave capsized the boat he was in. he was boating at the time, fishing on sunday night. >> this gentleman, when he came on scene, this was only thing he was holding onto. he weighed, 200, 220 pounds. unfortunately he was unable to get to his life jacket

with the vessel capsized. >> he is fine. he is really cold, skin from being in the water too long. bill: his brother, by the way was with him. he managed to swim safely to shore. thank goodness for coolers, huh? martha: there are new questions today surrounding the strength of the cease-fire agreement between israel and militants of the gaza strip. life seems to return to normal a the moment in the middle east however there could be some very dark clouds on the horizon as we often found in this situation. conner powell joins me right now. i met with islamic militants and is live in gaza city with the latest. >> reporter: nearly a week into the cease-fire agreement, martha and continues to hold. few people in gaza or across the board in israel think it will last particularly long, certainly not members of islamic jihad who spoke to fox news today. outside gaza city and under cover of grapefruit trees members of islamic jihad

train for next fight against israel. proudly displaying anti-aircraft gun and saying they will have new rockets in the fight against israel. a fight they believe will happen soon. >> translator: this is only a pause. we are rearming. >> reporter: these fighters say there are tunnels and bunkers all over gaza. they will continue to build them during the cease-fire and use them to resist an israeli ground invasion. even in the fields where fighters have the advantage, israel's fire power is clear. israel's military clearly know the fields are not just for growing fruit. there are visible signs after recent missile strike though doesn't appear anything of importance was hit. in gaza city the cleanup from the past two weeks of violence continues. within hours of the cease-fire hamas had workers cleaning up the destruction. this is not only part of the reconstruction effort but also hamas showing palestinians it is in firm control and in charge of gaza. both israel and hamas have sent representatives to

egypt to continue discussions about the cease-fire agreement. with israeli election coming up in a few months it is unlikely much will get done, martha. martha: thank you very much. con nor powell reporting in gas say, if you thought the fight for the health care law was over, supreme court breathing new life into a new legal challenge. we'll talk to the principle players in this case. martha: weighing for the details on the showdown between ambassador susan rice and lawmakers meeting on capitol hill. big questions were raised on her controversial comments on the libyan terror attack. we'll have developments from the meeting as they come through. we'll be back on "america's newsroom" [ malannouncer ] it'that time of year again.

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republicans and democrats are seeing who blinks first it appears. i'm martha maccallum. bill: i'm bill hemmer. good morning. good morning to you. martha: hello there. bill: we know there is no set meeting on the schedule for the white house for the president to sit down with congressional leaders. they talked on the phone on the weekend. all that can change by the day. the president will appeal to americans, some of them to put pressure on maker lawmakers. republicans indicating you do not need to raise tax rates to get to the deficit. >> we ned we need a realistic chance for it to pass congress. >> he will not extend the bush-era cuts for those making more than $250,000.

he's made that clear. i've made that clear, others have made it clear that is a firm position. martha: joining us now from the white house is molly henneberg. why the public offensive from the president at this point. >> reporter: the election is over. the end of the year is drawing near and the president, as all presidents do has the bully pulpit. he is going to talk to americans, press his case so that americans will put pressure on their elected leaders to congress. the president will meet with small business owners today here at the white house. he'll meet with middle class families tomorrow, and on friday he will make a public case for extending tax cuts for the middlend raising taxes on families making more than $250,000. when he visits a business in pennsylvania. the white house says on this highly-charged issue, quote, public communication is essential. >> we are always looking for ways to engage the public in a debate like this. because everyone here should be acting on the public's behalf.

and hearing from them, hearing their voices, and hearing their priority is essential to helping compel this process forward. >> reporter: as you were saying, martha, so far for the week ahead scheduled there are no meetings on the public schedule with congressional leaders. martha: yeah there was discussion that there would be a sit down, a meeting sometime this week. a lot of people are looking for leadership from the president on this. is there any sign this he's convincing the republican lawmakers that rates, raising tax rates is nonnegotiable? >> well, you have heard some movement from republicans, that they are willing to give, or compromise on the revenue side. whether that means tax rates is not clear yet, but on the revenue side there is some give. they are waiting to see what the president is willing to compromise on on spending, specifically spending on a trio of big government programs. here is more. >> i'm willing to put revenue on the table to pay down debt and create a better economy, but my

democratic friends have to reform entitlements. what will make us grief is not raising taxes, what will make us grief is not fixing medicare, medicaid and social security. >> house speaker john boehner said he would prefer closing loopholes and tax deductions rather than raising rates. martha: thank you very much. bill: the budget negotiations with congressional leaders started a few weeks ago with president obama barack obama calling for $1.6 trillion in additional tax revenue over the next decade. treasury secretary timothy geithner argues that you cannot raise enough revenue to reduce the deficit by only limited tax breaks as some republicans argue, some senior republican aides they say believe a likely compromise would generate about a trillion dollars in new tax revenue possibly by limiting the deductions. martha: part of this whole equation. any future spending cuts should

come gradually warned the global economic watchdog so as not to derail the already weak recovery. the group predicts the economy will grow a bit next year but at a slower rate than originally thought. we are really in a very slow growth pattern. they are projecting 2% next year compared with 2.6% which was the forecast from a few months ago. that kind of gross does not get you up off the map in consecutive quarters. republicans have made it clear, that they are willing to compromise on their end but so far reports are that there are no real concessions from democrats. coming up we'll speak to the ranking democrat on the house budget committee, an excellent guest on this. chris van hollan will join us minutes away. bill: there is a meeting between ambassador susan rice and key republican lawmakers. on the agenda is the consulate

attack in benghazi, libya and why ambassador rice initially blamed an anti-muslim film for the ambush, a concern many say she needs to explain. >> there was classified information, which she has access to, which clearly contradicted that. she also, by the way said that al-qaida was decimated, along with osama bin laden being killed. al-qaida has not been decimated, al-qaida is roaring back in most parts of the middle east. bill: chief intelligence correspondent catherine herridge live with us in washington. good morning to you. this was something that was put on the schedule yesterday. what is the expectation from this meeting. >> reporter: thank you, bill and good morning. the meeting called at the request of ambassador rice is on going at one of the private senate rooms in the capitol hill visitor senators. we saw the arrival of senators mccain and graham and kelly ayotte. they say they can serious

problems as she characterized the assault as spontaneous and blamed an anti-islam video for the death of four americans. >> the best assessment we have today is this was not a preplanned premeditated attack. it was a spontaneous reaction to what had transpired in cairo as a consequence of the video. >> reporter: she said she relied on the best available intelligence. they say that is simply not the case she had access to talking points and the classified information, as i heard from senator mccain that classified intelligence showing strong evidence within days of the attack, specifically by september 14th that there was no demonstration at the consulate when the attack unfolded, bill. bill: we mentioned john mccain. who else is at this meeting, catherine. >> reporter: one of the most interesting developments this morning is that in addition to rice and the senators the acting director of the cia mike mo remember, l will -lts be at th

will also be at the meeting. there is no comment on why he is there and at whose request. morel along with the senior leadership in the intelligence community said those controversial talking points about benghazi were changed after they left the u.s. intelligence community. now there has been a complete reversal of that position with a spokesman for the national of intelligence, he is the senior manager of the intelligence community saying they were behind the significant changes which involved stripping out the language of al-qaida. again the criticism of rice is that in addition to talking points she had access to classified intelligence that showed strong support for a terrorist attacks within days not within two days of the assault. bill: there is drama in these meetings. you don't know what the answers will be and whether it satisfies the senators or takes them in a whole new direction. thank you, catherine herridge in washington. martha: a story we haven't heard

from in a little while. bradley manning who was the army private charged with turning over secrets to wic wikileaks is heading to court today. he was locked up in a small cell for nine months, he is expected to testify during the pretrial hearing that begins today at for the mead in maryland. that will run through sunday. i faces life in prison if he is convicted. bill: here is a jackpot for you the jackpot for wednesday's powerball. the drawing stands at $425 million. that is the richest powerball pot ever. millions of chasing the chance to hit it big. the drawing is tomorrow night. martha: someone suggested they should dived it up and have two winners because it's so big. bill: do you think so. martha: i think so. stpho: after taxes you have $200 million. the government would take half of it. how long would that cover our

debt. seven and a half minutes. martha: seven and a half minutes. more republicans are saying that they will ignore their antitax pledge to some extent to make a deal on the fiscal cliff. we're going to talk to grover norquist the man behind the tax pledge, whether his tax agreement may be out of date. bill: watch this story now, central kaj re, tahrir square, thousands of protestors back inside that square setting up tents over night, condemning the recent power grab by its new president. something the white house so far has failed to do, so should they? we'll debate that with bob and andrea. >> to assume this kind of pow iris unacceptable to the united states of america. then we can outline what actions can be taken, but first condemn it. or annuity over 10 or even 20 years? call imperial structured settlements. the experts at imperial can convert your long-term payout into a lump sum of cash today.

bill: former florida governor jeb bush already generating a bit of buzz about 2016. he held a meeting with former staffers in washington right around the corner from the white

house, and the governor would not comment on the possibility of a presidential run, instead saying he was there to catch up with folks and get ready for and they education summit. the meeting included mitt romney's campaign pollster kneel newhouse along with several florida campaign operatives. it was held at a hotel on pennsylvania avenue accepts steps away from the white house. take that and -- martha: interesting. a growing number of republicans have now signaled that they would be willing to compromise on revenue, on the revenue side, taxes, to avoid going over this fiscal cliff that is looming in front of all of us, but in exchange they say they want democrats to get serious about giving in on entitlements. president obama himself even admitting a couple of years ago that he believes that these programs, as they are, are simply not sustainable. listen. >> the major driver of our long-term liabilities, everybody here knows is medicare and

medicaid and our healthcare spending. nothing comes close. martha: there is the problem. that is the president a couple years ago. chris van molland is ranking member of the budget committee. good to have you here this morning. martha: good to be with you. martha: i want to get to medicare in a moment. i want to start with what is being seen as concessions on the republican side in terms of what they are willing to do. here is my question to you. if we are looking at a dollar figure that we want to bring in in terms of revenue, right, does it matter if it comes from eliminating loopholes and doing tax reform, or whether it comes from taxing the rich? does it matter how you get there in revenue? >> what matters, martha is the mathematics of this. and if you look at the kind of revenue that was raised in totality from simpson-bowles, it's very difficult to achieve that revenue if you're starting point for tax reform is the current tax rate as opposed to

moving to the clinton era tax rates for high income individuals which is what the president has proposed. the president plan has about $1.6 trillion in revenue, which is actually less total revenue than in simpson-bowles, but the republican plans that have been put on the table fall far short that of number, and no one has shown anyway of getting to those revenue numbers through just the elimination of deductions. martha: well there is 1.2 trillion in loopholes in the tax code. so, you know, if you could be shown a mold, if you could be shown the numbers, i'm asking you if it's politically that you have to get the tax increases from the wealthy from the bush tax cuts or whether what you're really looking for is revenue. if you could get the revenue you seek does it matter to you which way you get it? >> martha, look, the math is the most important thing. what the math shows is you can't do what you just said, you said there are $1.2 trillion in

so-called tax expenditures. that number is based on the value of tax expenditures out there on a 39.6% top tax rate. in other words, that 1 thrill-plus number of tax expenditures is derived based on their value relative to these higher tax rates. so that is exactly the point that we've made. we should talk about tax reform, but we should do it beginning at the tax rates from the clinton era for high income earners. if you look at the simpson-bowles hi-def sit numbers they presume that additional revenue as part of their tax plan. martha: is it your understanding that some concessions that are being made by republicans and others, lindsey graham and others, is it your understanding that they are willing to get there by raising tax rates or willing to get there by raising revenue through real tax remember form in. >> no, my understanding is those, for example, senator

corcoran and other who have talked about this said they would put revenue on the table by eliminating certain deductions or capping itemized deductions. what i'm saying is if you look at simpson-bowles-type plans in terms of the total revenue that they generate and the president's plan as a balanced approach, you can't get to the revenue numbers by capping itemized deductions. the president's plan has both. it would both raise the top rate for high income earners, take it back to clinton era levels and the president's would reduce the value of deductions for high income earners. martha: i want to switch over to the medicare side. we just got new numbers this morning that stewart varney brought us. we know that $42 trillion in unfunded liability is the number for medicare right now. are you willing to change the model for medicare over the long term in order to get there in these numbers?

are you willing to do that in entitlement reform in these negotiations? >> well, martha we've always said that we will look at immediat medicare reform and modernization. we did that in the affordable care act. the difference here is when republicans talk about reform they don't talk about looking for ways to reduce costs in medicare, they are talking about ways to simply transfer rising healthcare costs onto the backs of beneficiaries, onto the back of seniors whose median income. martha: i understand your argument here. i want to ask you if you're open to the idea of raising the age for medicare and for social security. it wouldn't affect anybody who is currently receiving those benefits. if you look at people under the age of 5 a if they come to you and say, can we go to 67 on medicare, for example, can we go to -- in that same area, 67, 69 on social security down the

road, would you be willing to do something like that? >> look at medicare, what you're doing by moving it from 65 to 67 is again not reducing costs in medicare, it's not really reforming the medicare system you're just transferring those costs and risks onto people who may be 66 years old. martha: you are reforming the medicare system because it's going to go bust in several years, so if you prolong the program and make the age later, people are living longer, so isn't that age sort of outmoded and isn't that a good thing to address long term? >> there are a lot better ways of doing it. martha: that's a no i'm hearing. you're not willing to change the age. >> no, because there are much better ways of dealing with medicare costs. let's look at ways we can reduce the cost ofe without transferring rising healthcare costs. we began to do that under the affordable healthcare act. there are other things you can accelerate to do exactly that. if you have two choices why not take the khoeuts tha choices

overall costs than transferring overall costs. martha: doctors are no longer taking medicare patients. you need to find a different which to get at the problem because they are loosing those services as a result of that anyway. >> actually, martha, every survey that's been taken shows that patient satisfaction in the medicare program is much higher than patient satisfaction than the private health insurance market. that's been the results of numerous surveys that have been done over the last couple of years. martha: i could introduce you to doctors who would say otherwise and say they are no longer taking medicare patients as a result of all this. let me ask you one question -- martha question dash. >> there are doctors in very high cost markets that are doing that. martha: let me ask you a question. do you believe a deal can and will be reached before this fiscal cliff? >> i do believe a deal can be reached, and the basisser that agreemenbase basis of that agreement has to be revenues and cuts. we've done a trillion dollars in

cuts as part of the control act. the president has additional cuts. he's got more healthcare cuts than simpson-bowles proposed. he doesn't do it by transferring -- martha: that deal did not go through. do you expect the president will sit down with leadership this week to discuss this and take a leadership role in this fight? >> the president is taking a leadership role in this fight. i think people need to sit down as they have looked for ways to find progress. as you know the president already had the congressional leaders to the white house a little while back. people are pursuing different ideas right now to try to make -- to try and prevent us from going over the fiscal cliff, and the president has laid out a very clear map, road map for how we do that. martha: all right we walked right up to it in the grand bargain and then it didn't happen. we all hope that you all will be successful in your work this time around and we thank you very much for being with us today, good conversation, representative. thank you very much. bill: a new challenge to obamacare that some argue will put the issue back in front of

the u.s. supreme court yet again. we'll ask one of the major players in this challenge, how is this case different from the last one? we are about to find out.

martha: that has become such an iconic image from sandy, the jersey shore roller coaster submerged by the storm that had been there for so many years will have to go there. was talk about leaving it there. the mayor of seaside heights says the amusement park heights will not be left as a momento. he said it was a possibility but he admits it, quote, wasn't the brightest comment in his opinion at this point. construction of a new boardwalk, brand-new shiny one will get underway in january. bill: we find the u.s. supreme court breathing new life into a

major lawsuit against the president's healthcare plan. liberty university says the plan violates its religious freedom. it has an issue with that mandate as well. just this week the supreme court said this case should be heard at a lower level. the dean of liberty university school of law is here, good morning to you and thank you for your time. justice roberts says the mandate stands. how can you argue today that you can bring a fresh khal tony dungy that mandate? >> well, the fact that the supreme court actually granted our motion for rehearing, our petition for rehearing is huge. it speaks volumes. obviously i think there are justices on the u.s. supreme court that would want to reconsider this case. now we are back on a fast track throughout court of appeals and back to the united states supreme court probably in 2013. here is what bee have that is different. the issues that we have have not been argued before the court before. first of all the employer mandate across the board for religious and secular

employers. we are arguing that is unconstitutional. if the supreme court were to uphold the employer mandate like it did the individual mandate the other argument is is the free exercise of religion. this has a collision course that is in the making with obama care and religion in 2013, when healthcare policies come up for me fuel and liberty, university, for example is a christian university, the largest christian university in the world. one of the core issues of our doctrine is the sanctity of human life, life begins in the womb and we must protect it. we can't kill individual children and we must not be participating in funding abortion. that will be a collision course in 2013 for liberty university and others across this country. bill: to put a fine point on it you're arguing that the mandate that requires you to contribute to the healthcare law, that money then would be used to cover the cost of abortion. and that is your argument about violating religious freedom, do

i have that right? >> in part. in fact the mandate requires liberty university and other organizations, religious as well as secular to provide abortion coverage, or abortion inducing drugs. liberty university doesn't do that now and that is a line that we cannot and will not cross. that is the collision that is coming in 2013. i think the supreme court shows an interest by the fact that they allowed this to continue. in the last term the supreme court issued a 9-0 decision in favor of the free exercise of religion, rejecting the department of justice's position that ought to be very limited. they have a very expansive position on this issue. the fact they've done that in the last term and they now breathe new life in this case i think shows that there is an interest in ultimately addressing this case. we are headed toward a collision in 2013. bill: why do you believe the court made that ruling? >> well, you know it's -- bill: why didn't they come out and say, listen you should have your case heard, and the follow-up to that is pretty obvious, where were you during

the original challenge on this case. >> we were actually at the original challenge. liberty university and private individuals, liberty council filed the suit back in march of 2010. we were the very first private lawsuit in the country. i argued at the district court and the federal court of appeals. and in 2011 the court of appeals didn't address our merits of the case. they ruled that the anti-injunction act prohibited them from getting to the merits bee asked the supreme court to review that mountains and liberty's case was the very first day of the three days of oral argument on the anti-injunction. when the court ultimately made its ruling it ruled in our favor and that's where we are now, breathing new life into this case, having the rehearing, directing the court of appeals to now address our issues. if the court thought that there was no merit in our issues, or if they simply did not want to be bothered by obama care again they do have easily denied our petition for rehearing, but they granted it. bill: it will be interesting to follow. we'll see whether or not it has success gag back before the justices. you're saying the end of 2013, it's something we will watch,

sir. thank you, matt staver, liberty university . thank you for your time today. martha: a decades' old pledge to oppose tax hikes signed by hundreds of republicans is now being dismissed, at least in part by some high profile g.o.p. members who say that they believe that now is not the time to hold onto part of that pledge. the man behind that pledge, the well-known grover norquist who sits right there in our washington studio joins us live coming up moments away. bill: joke is on you. kim jong un declared the sexist man in the world. apparently the sarcasm didn't translate well. how he was fooled, ahead. >> uh-oh. [ whistle blows ] hi victor! mom? i know you got to go in a minute

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martha: i want to take you now to the live scenes of tahrir square in kaj row, egypt where the crowd has been growing. we saw steve harrigan reporting a little while ago when it was still light in the square. he said the mobs were growing and becoming much mor more angry and chanting songs they heard the last time in this situation. they are concerned about mohammed morsi and the rules he has put in place that some say

gives him more power than the pharaohs in egypt. bill: a guy you may or may not have heard before, grover norquist is his name, and 250 years ago he started an antitax hike pledge campaign. among all republicans in washington. right now he's the target for a lot of folks, including tarr harry reid on the floor of the senate only moments ago. listen to him. >> unfortunately there is one obstacle standing between you and congress to compromise, grover norquist. for years he has bullied lawmakers willing to put their oath of office or promise to serve constituents ahead of their pledge to this antitax zealot. his brand of ideological extremism has been bad for congress and even worse for the country. i was pleased to see republicans in congress distance themselves from norquist this week. i appreciate that very much. bill: here now to react. grover norquist, americans for

tax reform. good morning to you. >> sure. bill: harry reid, what do you think about that? >> well, only senator harry reid of nevada could pack that many lies into something quite that short. look, the taxpayer protection pledge as harry reid well knows is a commitment by senators and congressmen to their constituents, not to me personally, reid tells that lie over and over again, a commitment to their constituents that when they come to washington they will reform government and spend less money, rather than raise taxes. when harry read says that the commitment of those republican senators not to raise taxes is an impediment he means it's an impediment to raising taxes so obama and reid can keep spending money. reid has been supportive of every one of barack obama's wasteful spending programs e. wants to raise taxes to pay for it. you heard from van hollen earlier they are not interested in cutting any spending at all. they want to koeupbt as their

contribution to budget he restraint, democrats. cuts already in law and 800 bill dollars that he claims he saved for not occupying iraq for the next decade. iraq kicked him out a while ago. all of the president's tax cuts are make believe and they are trying to have a conversation about raising taxes 1.6 trillion on the american people. this economy is very weak, very fragile, obama's recovery technically going on for four years now feels more like a recession. bill: you wonder if the white house will get its way and if so how much of this. republicans too have been cracking this door a little bit. peter king said over the weekend for instance if i was in congress in 1941 with refrpbl reference to the pledge you made i would have signed a war against japan. i'm not going to attack japan today. the world has changed and the economic situation is different. that from peter kin. about is make it clear, what

raising revenues and not tax rates. just on the surface, why do you believe that the door is starting to crack a little bit? why are republicans talking this way? >> two things, the people who are saying that they might vote for a tax increase that bush got talked into in 1990 for return for make believe spending cuts are the same people who said this two years ago, this is a complete media-created frenzy. peter king said this two years ago, lindsey graham said this two years ago. chamblis of georgia said this two years ago. they said all these things all during the negotiations where they tried to undermine where john boehner and mitch mcconnell got 2.5 trillion in spending cuts without a dollar than tax increase and those people who are out there trying to offer tax increases undermining the rest of the republican party, undermining taxpayers and not keeping their word to the constituents who elected them. the same people are making comments now. bill: i think a lot of people on the right are not going to argue with you when they see

$16 trillion in debt it just blows their minds and they think all the money that goes to washington it's not coming back home. it will only be spent and taken into a deeper hole. we have a new reality now, the wall street journel has an editorial today, it argues, let speaker john boehner debate the tax reform idea as long as he can to mitigate the damage that would come from democrats in the first place. why not allow that? >> well, we are all in favor of tax reform, as boehner has said that would reduce rates and give us economic growth. if you grow at 4% a year instead of 2% a year you 5 trillion additional in revenue. that would bay down obama's debt by economic growth. eliminating deductions and credits to give the government more money to spend not only wastes more money, raises taxes, it guts tax reform in the future. this is something the "wall street journal" knows and steve

moore wrote about just last saturday. we ought to be going for lower marginal tax rates to have economic growth, and of course obama wants republicans, some republicans to start a discussion about how they'd raise taxes, while nobody has asked him or van hollen on your show what spending cuts are you talking about, he mentioned spending cuts -- stpho: it's a fair point and dick durbin a democratic senator from illinois is going to say you need to separate the fiscal cliff discussions from any talk about reforming medicare or medicaid. the bottom line in all of this is you're not going to get a vote that passes in the house unless democrats concede on the entitlement programs, and that there is the stalemate, in the 15 seconds i have left, right or wrong? >> well the challenge is two years ago we extended all the bush tax cuts without change because all the players were exactly the same and the economy was just as weak. we ought to start by doing that. and then look at spending restraint, but don't count on

it, you just elected a president who doesn't want spending restraint. bill: grover norquist, we will speak again. thank you for coming by today. >> sure. bill: 20 minutes before the hour, here is martha. martha: an unsettling power grab by one of our critical mead east allice, possibly inching towards dictator ship there. is the live pick in cairo, egypt, are we urging them to reach a peaceful solution, and is that enough from our leadership? with less chronic low back pain. imagine you, with less pain. cymbalta can help. cymbalta is fda-approved to manage chronic musculoskeletal pain. one non-narcotic pill a day, every day, can help reduce this pain. tell your doctor right away if your mood worsens, you have unusual changes in mood or behavior or thoughts of suicide. antidepressants can increase these

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bp has paid overthe people of bp twenty-threeitment to the gulf. billion dollars martha: thousands gathering in cairo's tahrir square protesting the president's unprecedented power grab there. these are scenes from yesterday. we have a live shot we'll get knew a moment. we've been watching it throughout the show today. you have reporters repeatedly pressing the white house over their response, what has been said from the white house to president morsi at this point,

that is the big question. senator mccain says there is only one way he believes for the u.s. to handle this situation. here he is. >> stop, stop, renounce the statement and the move that he just made. allow the judiciary to function. if the judiciary is flawed in some way then that is an illness that can be cured over time. but absolutely to assume this kind of power is unacceptable to the united states of america. and then we can outline what actions might be taken, but first condemn it. martha: recommendation of a strong outcry from john mccain there, what he suggests the president should do but the white house press secretary is refusing to go that far. here is that exchange. >> we have expressed and raised concerns about the decisions and declarations of november 22nd, and, you know, we'll continue to do that as appropriate. we call for calm and we encourage all parties to work together and call for egyptians to resolve their differences

over these important issues peacefully. >> you're not condemning what he's doing. >> i certainly don't have any new language to give to you today on how our view -- what our view on it is. >> the white house is criticizing president morsi. would you say that was an incorrect statement? >> i would say we are concerned about it and have raised those concerns. martha: stopping short of saying that they criticize president morsi. bob beckel joins me now former democratic campaign pherg an manager and andrea ta tamparo. >> here is the problem, after you do that, mccain says automatic line things we do after that -- bill: sorry about the interruption. this is senator mccain fresh out of his meeting with ambassador susan rice.

>> i am significantly troubled by many of the answers that we got and didn't get concerning evidence leading up to the attack on our consulate and the tragic deaths of four brave americans and whether ambassador rice was prepared or in formed sufficiently in order to give the american people a correct depiction of the events that took place. it is clear that the information that she gave the american people was incorrect, when she said that it was a spontaneous demonstration triggered by a hateful video. it was not, and there was compelling evidence at the time that that was certainly not the case, including statements by libyans, as well as other americans who are fully aware that people don't bring mortars

and rocket-propelled grenades to spontaneous demonstrations. >> bottom line i'm more disturbed now than i was before that the 16 september explanation about how four americans died in benghazi, libya by ambassador rice, i think does not do justice to the reality at the time, and in hind sight clearly was completely wrong. but here is the key, in realtime it was a statement disconnected from reality. if anybody had been looking at the threats coming out of benghazi, libya, it would jump out you this was an al-qaida storm in the making. i'm very disappointed in our intelligence community, i think they failed in many ways, but with a little bit of inquiry and curiosity i think it would be pretty clear that to explain

this episode as related to a video that created a mob that turned into a riot was far afield, and at the end of the day we're going to get to the bottom of this. we have to have a system we can trust. and if you don't know what happened, just say you don't know what happened. people can push you to give explanations, and you can say, i don't want to give bad information. here is what i can tell you, the american people got bad information on 16 september, they got bad information from president obama, days after, and the question is, should they have been giving the information at all? if you can do nothing but give bad information isn't it better to give no information at all? so my belief is, not only is the information bad, and i'm more convinced than ever that it was bad, it was unjustified to give

the scenario as presented by ambassador rice and president obama three weeks before an election. >> can you support that secretary of state nomination? >> i want to say that i'm more troubled today knowing, having met with the acting director of the cia and ambassador rice, because it's certainly clear from the beginning that we knew that those with ties to al-qaida were involved in the eye tack on the embassy, and clearly the impression that was given of the information given to the american people was wrong. in fact ambassador rice said today absolutely it was wrong. i don't understand the cia said clearly that that information was wrong, and they knew by the 22nd that it was wrong, yet they have not cleared that up with the american people to date in coming forward and saying that they were wrong, including

the president of the united states having parroted also, talked about the fact that this is a reaction to a video, the attacks in benghazi, and what troubles me also is that obviously the changes made to the unclassified talking points were misleading, but just to be clear, when you have a position where you're ambassador to the united nations, you go well beyond unclassified talk points in your daly preparation and responsibilities for that job, and that is troubling to me as well, why she wouldn't have asked, i'm the person that doesn't know anything about this. i'm going on every single show. but in addition the fact that it's not just the talking points that were unclassified but clearly as part of her responsibility as an ambassador to the united nations she reviewed much more than that. >> would you support her as a secretary of state nominee? >> before anybody could make an

intelligent decision about promoting someone involved in benghazi we need to do a lot more. to this date we don't have the fbi interviews of the survivors conducted one or two days after the attacks. we don't have the basic information about what was said of the night of the attack that's been shared with congress as of this date. so, i remember the john bolton episode pretty well, our democratic friends felt like that john bolton didn't have the information needed to make an informed decision about ambassador bolton's qualifications, john bolt tone to be ambassador, and democrats dug in their heels saying we are not going to vote, we are not going to consider this nomination until we get basic answers to our concerns. all i can tell you is that the concerns i have are greater today than they were before, and we are not even close to getting the basic answers. >> could you support her as tk*eb secretary of state

nominee? >> i have many more questions that need to be answered. bill: that was fascinating. those are the three republican senators that cranked up the heat against the white house and also susan rice and john mccain on "fox news sunday" said that susan rice deserved to be heard out, she deserved to tell her story. well, she look them up on that invitation just yesterday and appeared with the acting director of the cia, the man who was just elevated given the resignation of david petraeus in a meeting that lasted about an hour based on the clock. it is clear that there are more questions now than answers, and it appears based on those comments too that this story has gone to a whole new level. back to our debate now with martha before the interruption there. martha: if anybody thought they were going to walk out of that meeting and say, you know, a lot of things were cleared up, we now understand better that is clearly not what we heard coming out of it. let's bring back in bob and andrea to get their reaction to this. bob, what do you think? >> before hemmer interruptses me again. let me say what i think.

none of the senators said they would vote against her. in mccain's case he said she was misinformed. the question is who misinformed her. i think she is in better shape because i think she is dealing with misinformation. martha: doesn't sound like it to me. they said they were more concerned than ever after talking to her. lindsey graham said if you're going to go out there say that you don't have the information, don't mislead the american people. kelly ayotte said that susan rice went in there and basically admitted to them that she was wrong. >> there is a big difference between that and saying she died. martha: there is. but what we heard from lindsey graham is i remember the john bolton situation where democrats told us they didn't have enough information to move on his nomination at the u.n., to make him a permanent u.n. ambassador. basically he was saying, i've been there and i'm ready to dig in. >> i won't even compare the two because there wasn't four dead americans when we were trying to

confirm ambassador john bolton. susan rice if she thinks that she is wrong she should come out and say this she was wrong. here is the biggest story, this administration has been giving us conflicting information from the beginning. okay, and they said that they had conflicting information, when we know from day one the cia said it was a terror attack, so lindsey graham's point is correct. if you have two different stories why go out at all. and susan rice has demonstrated she does not have the wisdom for the discernment to look at the information given to make the judgment on her own and say i'm not going to go out and say those things. why didn't the state department, most importantly secure that epl bats see. that is a bigger question. >> the cia was only one part of that process, andrea. martha: john bolton said there are a lot of folks in politics that will go out and tow the party line, john bolton said he didn't do that and that got him in trouble. that may be what we have at work here. i want to ask you politically, bob beckel. clearly the president feels

emboldened by the election an made it clear he's going to stand up for susan rice. i think it's more clear that he pwapbts to nominate her. he wanted her to go through this process with these senators she'll face in these hearings, if indeed that's what happens. does the president move hut herr listen to this news conference and say, maybe not? >> i think the reality is that she needed to go up now matter what she is going to do and try to clear some of this up. secondly i think obama would like to nominate her for secretary of state. i don't think there is enough evidence yet that she did anything, lying, or misinforming people. she may not have asked the questions she should have asked. this is a witch hunt now. 54% of the american people think there i was no cover up and 46 think there was. i think those are strong numbers, i think the american people are not buying the republican line. >> either she is lying or in competent. either one disqualifies her. if i'm her i should withdraw my ability to even be in the role. >> you're the one that thinks the cia is the only input into this thing.

>> with everything going on in the middle east, bob and we still don't have answers i think that the president needs somebody more competent than susan riz to admit tha rice to see that she was wrong. martha: we'll take a quick break and come back.